Forget the name, the real question is: "After a person has done his/her time for his crime--is it okay for society to hold his past against him/her? I say no--it's not okay to hold it against them--even though as a society that's exactly what we do. Well, put the shoe on your foot--make a mistake and then see how it feels to never be forgiven for your sins. We always asks others to make a change but most of us are just as unwilling to change ourselves--"the man in the mirror syndrome."

To all the Vicks in the world (black/blue/green/red/any color) continue to grow and move forward and look past those who would forever hold you in bondage for your previous misdeeds.

From another sinner....I don't know any saints!

YES LET ALL THE CONVICTS OUT OF JAIL TO RUN AMUCK!!! HOW LONG WOULD GARY LAST WITH 2 CONVICTS CHASING YOU WITH A KNIFE. CAN YOU SPELL LONG GONE AND HARD TO FIND BOYS AND GIRLS!!

Hello Henry, this isn't about me. Remember, I'm an adult and I'm sure this question was written by a child/teenager/student? The point: I answered the question at about the same time as you because when I responded your answer wasn't there. So, please direct your comments to those asking questions. I didn't ask and I didn't respond to your response. Furthermore, Henry I'm not here to protect anyone from criminals. But since you want to cross the line...I'M SURE YOU HAVE A FEW SKELETONS IN THE CLOSET JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Have a great day and try not to let your anger control. Remember, these parents, coaches, and children want answers not more hate.

Peace and please don't respond--it's not necessary.

And before I go Henry, this is what I do when I'm challenged. I play--I never run. If your government can't make me run, why would I run from a criminal?

True Life Story of Gary B. Jefferson

Turning Point: The making of an advocate
An exposé detailing the twenty year saga of one man's personal and legal valor in the pursuit of justice; resulting in a stipulated multi-million dollar, non-jury action against the United States of America.

Due to the voluminous records created, this book has the added potential for conversion into a series of books, magazine abstracts, and screenplay as well. Highly recommended!

The focus of Turning Point will be from a microcosm as client, attorney, and advocate all wrapped into one; a perspective that few authors can boast.

Provides a refreshing post O.J. facelift:

Chronologs various aspects of the author's life
Including his tumultuous personal relationships
The stakes and the players in the game
The legal maneuverings
The behind the scenes strategy
Jefferson vs U.S.A.
Jefferson vs. Reno et al.
Jefferson vs. U.S. Department of Justice
Jefferson vs. U.S. Department of Labor
Jefferson vs. U.S. Postal Service
And Much Much More

"Turning Point" explains what could make a man enter an arena as an "unqualified" neophyte, face the perils of federal litigation "unrepresented by counsel," and emerge victorious?--obtaining up to ten appeals in one system without reading one law book prior to 1992.

Get it now for just $29.95!

"Turning Point" highlights that, much too frequently, the recipient of governmental, journalistic, and corporate tyranny is the average man.

http://legaldee.com/vending.htm

http://members.tripod.com/legaldee/tp2.htm

I THINK THAT THE PEOPLE PAY FOR THE CONVICTS LEGAL REPRESENTATION, I THINK THAT THEY FEED, HOUSE AND PROVIDE RUNNING WATER AND PROVIDE FOR ALL HIS NEEDS. DID HE DO THATR FOR HIS VICTUMS?? DID THE CONVICTS THAT KILLED THOSE 2 PEOPLE EVEN GIVE A REASON, YOU KNOW THE ONE WHERE THE 2 KIND PEOPLE WERE TRYING TO HELP THE 14 KIDS WITH LEARNING DISABILITIES.

One question: Henry, what have you done for mankind? Inspire us. I didn't take the money because I didn't want what happened to me to happen to anyone else so laws were changed to help others--not myself...I didn't take the millions--I know, I'm a fool!--that's what most people say. Guess what, Henry, I still have skeletons but they don't control me because they're all in the open--how about yours? Please don't preach if you haven't performed any worthy deeds yourself! If people want to pay and cheer for the Vicks of the world--it's their prerogative--no one elses! Whose money is it anyway?

Fact not Fiction: (I don't expect you to know what the following regulations are about but these two new regulations are the product of "people going postal"--as a result of doctors/physicians getting paid under the table by your government administrators to send "mentally ill" "physically ill" workers back to work. This is your government "causing innocent people to be harmed/killed for the love of money. Again, fact not fiction.....

Where's your anger now, Henry? How come "America" never heard about this. Why: every news network in the nation ran from the story--why if it's the truth? Please spare us--no more ravings..no one asked you to support M. Vick.

Gary's Rules
1. The employing agency is prohibited from modifying "OWCP" forms or using substitute forms.[20 CFR 10.7(a)]

2. The employing agency may contact an employee's physician in writing concerning the employee's work limitations and possible job assignments but is prohibited from contacting an attending physician "by telephone or through personal visit".[20 CFR 10.506]

p.s. they didn't just lie, they also falsified reports--changed the results of reports and then "lied about it." Fortunately, I'm good at what I do...over 200 admissions demonstrating their lies--fodder for books.

Good night...

2 NJ mayors, lawmaker arrested in corruption case

NEWARK, N.J. The mayors of two New Jersey cities and a state legislator are under arrest Thursday as part of a major corruption and international money laundering conspiracy probe.

Federal prosecutors say about 30 people have been arrested. They include Assemblyman Daniel Van Pelt, Hoboken Mayor Peter Cammarano III, Secaucus Mayor Dennis Elwell and Jersey City Deputy Mayor Leona Beldini. Federal prosecutors say several rabbis in New York and New Jersey are also arrested.

Cars are backed up four deep with suspects outside the FBI's Newark office.

Newark Mayor Cory Booker, who has fought corruption in New Jersey' largest city, says it's "an unbelievable morning so far."

No other information is immediately available.

p.s.
****Not even a half page on this but Vick gets daily press for killing dogs!***
Where's the outrage? If and when convicted do we hold them to the same scrutiny as Michael Vick? "Time will tell." Wake up folks and use your own minds...stop the indoctrination of America and start "Educating!"

Everyone makes mistakes, and should be given a chance to make up for their mistakes. If he or she is a good person then they should not and will not make that mistake again. And honestly as the BIBLE SAYS IN THE WORDS OF THE CREATOR" LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE"

IT IS A MISTAKE IF YOU ARE HALF ASLEEP AND MAYBE YOU PUT 2 DIDERNT SOX ON, BUT WHEN YOU PRACTICE TO KILL PEOPLE FOR 30 DAYS AND REHERSE OVER AND OVER SO THE CRIME IS DONE TO PERFECTION. IS THE A MISTAKE??? I SAY PUT THEM IN JAIL AND THROW AWAY THE KEYS.

So going by what YOU feel is a no redemption policy, Martha Stewart should be still in prison too? I don't understand how you've gone from Michael Vick to the whack jobs in florida that killed those wonderful people, but the point is AGAIN THAT THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN JUDGE ANYONE OR ANYTHING IS OUR CREATOR. However you feel matters not because Mr. Vick served his time and paid his DEBT TO SOCIETY PER THE CONSTITUTION. If you have a problem with the CONSTITUTION, then you have a problem with the american way and maybe YOU NEED TO BE SENT TO SOMALIA. But the constitution the I uphold as an AMERICAN CITIZEN is just that our way of life, so if that is your problem then either run for office or find another country. And YOU really don't have to cheer for or even watch any of the people that have been in trouble with the law, but if that's your choice then have fun watching RUGBY. And JEALOUSY will eat you up inside so let it go and try to enjoy life. You're not paying any of these atheletes.

How Does NFL receiver Donte Stallworth get 30 days in Jail for killing a person and Vick get over a year in jail for animal cruelty?

How can the NFL suspend Vick for any where near the suspension it gives Stallworth?

Animal cruelty is a crime, but how does it compare to killing a person?

This is a question that can only be answered by the authorities. I am of the OPINION that if you kill then you should definately be punished. If you are a millionare or not, because taking a life is final and there is no bringing that person back. The only difference in animal cruelty and killing a person is the severity of the sentence because both should be harsh punishments. Also I think that it is ridiculous for the commish to suspend vick for a second time, it's overkill. (pardon my pun)

There are always consequences to bad activity. And once the price has been paid and rehab done there should be forgiveness. But forgiveness doesn't have to mean he gets to go back to where he left off. Part of the price can be that he can no longer have what he once had. A felony means you can never vote again, no matter how much restitution and forgiveness has been made. It is just one of the prices paid for bad activity. There are many situations where one bad act means you never get to go back to where you were, but you still get to be forgiven if truly sorry and restitution made, and you get to not have it held against you as you move on to new opportunities, while leaving behind what you gave up by making bad decisions.

Martha Stewart came out of prison and resumed her previous activities without so much as a rude email. Why are atheletes different? And to that note, Martha has more money than most of the atheletes in question anyway. Are we basing the answers to these questions on OUR own bias or on what EVERYONE should be viewing it as? When you commit a crime your punishment as well as your forgiveness should be based on that not what you are in our society. (i.e., athelete, socialite, etc) We are answering the questions of OUR CHILDREN!

Thanks Gary for the respectful debate. I can't take any position on Vick, Stewart, Steinbrenner or Rose, because I don't know enough facts, so I am writing this purely as a Devil's Advocate.

Where I disagree with you, is you said that if a Professional Team Owner was a convicted felon a Word would not be said. And Kevin claimed that Martha Stewart was allowed to resume her life upon her release. I gave you information suggesting you were both wrong. Are you claiming I am wrong on this?

As far as punishment, or a person doing time goes, most punishments are statutory. Moreover Punishment is not merely incarceration, actually Parole and Probation play a bigger role in the criminal justice system than incarceration does. There are a lot of examples of a criminal conviction precluding a person returning to their profession, for example a convicted felon can not practice law. Didn't Bill Clinton lose his license to practice law for commiting perjury?

As far as your Stats go, stats are like the Sports Illustrated Swim Suit Issue, it shows a lot, but not everything.

Ultimately, one of the things that makes America the best country ever is that it is a forgiving nation. With some exceptions everyone deserves a second chance, and Americans love a comeback, that's why the "Rocky" movie series is so popular.

Peace, Love and Understanding

Hi Gary,

Are you claiming Steinbrenner is not self employed? Was Steinbrenner suspended twice by MLB, one of which was for a felony conviction? Do Lawyers get disbarred for felony convictions?

It seems to me that if we treat Michael Vick like Steinbrenner, Stewart, Pete Rose, etc. he does deserve a long, if not life time suspension. He is responsible for his actions and then lying to cover them up.

Sorry Sidd, ran out of word space. Collateral issues I briefly touched on previously when I said "Pete got his and Vick might too." Again, you aren't the only one on the board playing "devils advocate"--you're the only one who "acknowledged it publically." Remember I've said this more than once: this is bigger than the Pete Roses and Michael Vicks of the world. Simply stated: if this issue was regarding an average everyday wage earner (hence the previous statement: a trash man) we wouldn't be having this conversation at all!

Again, if you open up the door, I'm going to walk through just as I now have. All you have to do is read each post I made and see the link in the previous message which led to the final position I originally started out with (responding to Henry):

"Turning Point" highlights that, much too frequently, the recipient of governmental, journalistic, and corporate tyranny is the average man.

Sidd my position never changed, you made statements/assumptions which I just didn't respond to until the need surfaced.

So in a nutshell in a sidd led world, once you are convicted then you should never be able to redeem your self in any way or improve yourself at all. I really dislike it when people jump around the truth. This issue started when the question was asked about Mr. Vick, (African american athelete) race aside the issue that people have is with the people who rehire the convicted felons and probationers. Once convicted they can't hire and pay themselves so what needs to happen is find out why they continue to hire the felons etc. and you'll have your answer

Kevin, welcome to the world of law and order: this is exactly why you don't want to end up in court as a defendant. The responses elicited will always vary depending upon the "quality" of the questions asked. For example: for me the question meant: after one has done his time **finished paying his dues to society "under the law"--should it be held against him?** My response: no. Whatever the sentence (whether just or not), should society be able to hold it against them once it's completed--my answer no. I'm not debating how much time to give anyone. However, what I am stating is how much time/punishment/parole/probation...etc will be determined by the concepts of money, gender, race..non-parity phenomenon--THE SAME ONES LEADING TO THIS DISCUSSION RIGHT NOW...

USED RAWLINGS BASEBALL GLOVE FOR SALE $49.00. GOES ON LEFT SO YOU CAN THROW WITH YOUR RIGHT HAND. 781 891 0621 LET'S TRY TO GET ALONG!!

TELL THE DOGS THAT HAD THEIR THROGHTS CUT BY THE WINNING DOG THAT MY QUESTION WAS VAGUE AND COMPUND. ANY PUBLIC FIGURE WITH THAT KIND OF MONEY KNOW BEST. HE HAS ACCES TO BEST LEGAL MINDS. LET ME TELL YOU A QUICK ONE. AND I SAVED THE RECORDING AS PEOPLE DID NOT BELIVE ME. WWE HAVE A PLAYER THAT CALLS EVERY SATURDAY AT 11 AM. HE SAIS NO ONE IS AT THE FIELD. I TOLD HIM OVER AND OVER AND OVER THAT SUNDAY BASEBALL IS ON SUNDAY AT 11 AM, NOT ON SATURDAY. BUT EVERY SAT HE CALLS HERE WITH THE SAME COMPLAINT. CAN SOMEONE HERE EXPLAIN WHY THIS CAN NOT BE RESOLVED. HE WILL BE THERE NEXT SATURDAY AT 11 AM LOOKING FOR THE PLAYERS THAT SHOW ON SUNDAY AT 11 AM!!!! 781 891 0621 WWW.HENRYSBASEBALLCLUB.COM

Henry, by contrast did you know:

Hanging Pigs in Ohio is Legal

Dusty Stroud, the hog farmer in Ohio accused of animal cruelty has been exonerated of animal cruelty charges. An undercover video showed hanging a hog for several minutes as a form of killing the animal.

The point: we have domesticated the dog but in other parts of the world a dog is a delicacy! So the question of guilt appears to be related to "what type of animal" you hang as "opposed to the act of hanging itself."

Maybe Vick should have invested in pigs, that way he would have been exonerated--assuming his state also follows this rule. I didn't check because it's irrelevant. The issues: the act of killing is a crime depending upon what animal you kill and the acceptable form of killing is directly related to that animal. ***makes you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Did you protest this issue or any others related to animal cruelty that takes place on a daily basis in America? Or is it just athletes with money?

The question is rhetorical--no reply necessary--it's a learning experience.

Why not? This is America, the land of the 2nd chance. People seem to have so much hate in their heart for what he did. People say yeah let him work and do something else besides football. To me that's crazy because that is the only thing he knows, something he has done his entire life. If he was a garbage man would you say yes let him go back and do garbage? Is it that he does something fun and is paid a lot of money to do it?

HE WENT TO FAR. THAT WAS A SHOCK TO THE SPORTS WORLD, LIKE IT OR NOT. I THINK IT IS CALLED ANIMAL CRUELTY. IF YOU SAW A NEGHBOR BEATING A DOG, WOULDENT YOU TRY AND HELP OUT THAT DOG. I MEAN MOST DOGS JUST WANT TO PALL WITH US. NO NEED TO BEAT OR PUT THEM IN A PITBULL RING. I GUESS THAT SAME OF THE DOGS HAD TO BE PUT DOWN AS THEY WERE IN NO SHAPE TO SURVIVE AFTER THE BULL RING. YES LET'S ALL LOOK THE OTHER WAY, LET THE MIKE'S OF THE WORLD CORUP OUR CHILDREN AND KILL OUR DOGS. I GUESS WORLD WAR II SHOWED US VERY LITTLE.

I found this interesting. They say Mr. Madoff is remorseful....I disagree. Read the last line of this article and you'll find the real reason he's so remorseful?

Peace....and is this more important than the Vick "killing dogs" side show? I'll bet all that I have these victims could care less about Mr. Vick. In fact, I even bet that they are "tired" of hearing about Vick.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist this last input before getting back to my real job:
teaching the fundamentals of defend-rebound-finish (basketball).

Wed Jul 29, 1:21 am ET
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) Bernard Madoff, the financier convicted for Wall Street's biggest investment fraud, was surprised his $65 billion Ponzi scheme was not uncovered sooner, he said in his first interview since entering prison.

Madoff, the disgraced 71-year-old Wall Streeter who drew 150 years' prison time for the fraud, expressed remorse and talked candidly to a pair of lawyers suing him on behalf of investors, according to news reports of their jailhouse meeting on Tuesday.

San Francisco attorneys Joseph Cotchett and Nancy Fineman met with Madoff at the North Carolina prison where he was taken two weeks ago after pleading guilty, the Associated Press and ABC News reported on Tuesday.

"There were several times that I met with the SEC and thought 'they got me,'" Madoff told Cotchett and Fineman, according to abc news.com.

The Securities and Exchange Commission is now conducting an in-depth review of how they missed the fraud, drawing intense criticism. The results of their investigation are expected to be released in weeks.

Cotchett and Fineman represent about a dozen investors who lost money in Madoff's decades-long scheme, an unprecedented global scam for which Madoff eventually pleaded guilty to laundering, securities fraud and perjury.

"It was an extraordinary visit. He was very candid, very open, and answered every one of our questions," Cotchett said of the 4-1/2-hour meeting.

He was "very remorseful" but looked healthy and appeared to be working out, Cotchett told the news outlets.

"I think he's not too happy to be where he is but he's certainly not complaining," said Cotchett, who set up the interview through Madoff's attorneys.

The visiting attorneys said they planned to use what they learned at the meeting in a lawsuit to be filed this week in Manhattan against Madoff and his brother, Peter Madoff, who acted as chief compliance officer, and potentially officers at some of the feeder funds that worked with Madoff, according to the reports.

Madoff said he believed securities investigators had found all the money that could have been recovered, Cotchett said in the news reports.

"But it might be in many different venues, and by that I mean I don't think that Bernie knows where all the money is" because some was paid out to feeder funds, Cotchett said.

Madoff agreed to speak with Cotchett after the lawyer threatened to sue his wife, Ruth, abc news.com reported.

"He cares about Ruth," Cotchett said.

(Reporting by Gina Keating; Editing by Gary Hill)

Ok I thought I was done with this, but there seems to be a lot of laissez faire, and misunderstanding about paying for your mistakes, and what making some mistakes can mean. A drug addicts mistake can kill himself, a teenagers mistakes can bring an unwanted life, a doctors mistakes an unwanted death, a teachers mistakes a short time of misery for a child, a parents mistakes a lifetime of misery for a child. All mistakes and depending on who makes them have different effects on us and those around us, as well as differing consequesnces.

The real issues are:
Who influences our children and their behavior - #1 their parents, #2 the people they idolize, ie music stars, movie stars, famous athletes - especially of a sport they like. #3 Teachers and coaches and other people who help to raise them. If they see any of them having even the appearance of getting away with something, they can see it as something that can be justified. Remember the argument of Clinton influencing a new generation of low morals and permissiveness? He was definitely not forgiven or given a 2nd chance and it affected all around him. Including any support Gore could have expected from the party faithful. He is still used as an example of how a transgression can affect you for life, especially when it is so public, and by a figure expected to be an example.

The next issue is forgiveness, not 2nd chances - forgiveness. Yes once someone is sorry for their transgression, they should receive forgiveness and be able to move on with their life, but a 2nd chance has to be earned - hard. Old saying fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. By just doing his time and saying he is sorry is valid reason to let him move on and do anything, without prejudice, except what he has already demonstrated has gotten him into trouble. Analogies to other less visible occupations such as sanitation workers are not relevant. While no job is a right, there is nothing about an ordinary job that is as privileged as a high paying and high visibility sports job. And it is not about jealousy. Envy perhaps, being held to a higher standard. When we follow all the rules and get to live a mundane mediocre paying life, we don't want someone who has such privilege to be able to get away with anything. We want to know that getting to such privilege can be done without such transgressions, otherwise what hope is there for those who do live moral lives. We don't necessarily want anybody to fail, that would be jealousy. The outrage at the failure doesn't indicate jealousy, but rather a great dissapointment at failing us who believed in them. We didn't want OJ to be guilty, we don't want Ben Roethlesburger to be guilty, we don't even want our politicians to be guilty, no matter how juicy that ends up being. There was no great clamoring for his failure when he was being the highest paid athlete. But should they fail, we also don't want to give them another chance to fail us. When we freely give our money to see an exceptional person perform we have a right to expect that person to be of a certain character, and to be able to be an example. Their usual argument is that they didn't ask to be an example. But by taking money we willingly provide they are bound by the rules of any company that takes our money for a product and need to provide the product we want to purchase. In this case the direct purchaser is an NFL owner. But since the owner has to provide a product the end user will pay for, they can not be faulted if he has tainted his appeal.

And the other issue as to fairness of application. There will always be separate classes, even in a socialist society there are classes. The privileged will always get exceptional treatment and among them there will be those who get exceptional treatment. In a supposedly free country that wants to be held up as an example to the world, all we can do is keep striving for the better example. To paraphrase; "our system of justice and forgiveness is the most horrible example of how it should be done, --- except for everyone else's in the world."

In the end this specific example will not be about whether he gets a 2nd chance, he will. It will be about whether the parents will be an example to their children in how we react to that 2nd chance.

SOME OF THOSE HELPLES DOGS ARE NOW IN THE CEMETARY!!! ANY $$$ THAT HE MAKES SHOULD ALL GO TO DOG POUND OR HOSPITALS FOR ANIMALS. THE FACTS DON'T LIE!!!!!!!!!!!

Ran out of space on my comment back to Kevin cont'd here:
But Vick made a nice high visibility and thus nice example for others running these true examples of animal cruelty. Which brings me to your other examples of animal cruelty are you really equating well fed animals that get to live to reasonably good old age before being humanly put down when they get too sick or too old, to a farce of a sport that treats animals on and off the stage as nothing more than sources of bloodletting, starving them to get them treating them meanly for the sole purpose of having them tear each others flesh from their bones until one of them can no longer move and the other is feasting on its carcass for the only decent meal it thinks it's going to get? Sorry for the graphicness, but I think you made a really bad comparison. And did you really mean to imply that everyone involved in the meat industry is performing acts of animal cruelty? If we were talking about animal killings, or complaining about hunting for sport you might have had an argument, but killing for sport still doesn't compare to killing to eat. No, even though you don't want to excuse what he was involved in by using the examples you used you are. Because as far as I know, anytime the gov't has the evidence they prosecute cases of animal cruelty right up to the top of the chain if they can. If you can name any other cases of animal cruelty, real animal cruelty, where an animal is made to suffer and die in such a horrible manner just for the enjoyment of those watching, where the participants were not prosecuted when the evidence was obviously available then you can complain about Vick's treatment by comparison. Otherwise he was treated the same as anyone else who was involved in a criminal act of equal seriousness. He was given punishment to fit the outrage caused by his acts. And I don't think you should ever just dismiss a side of an argument because you think that nothing can explain cause of action. By closing your mind to any discussion being viable is to say that only your thinking is right. There can always be a reasonable cause for an action. To say other wise is to say discussion is not worth the effort because not matter how good the reasons I will do and think what I want and that makes these boards a waste of people just spouting off like all the talking without listening that goes on on talk shows of radical right and left. And it also gives "them" reason to say the same to you that their action is justified regardless of your argument to the contrary.

Really dislike the short comment format. Ultimately as asked, the answer to the question is...yes we should cheer for a convicted felon. As long as he has payed his price and changed his ways, we should always cheer for the one who is willing to mend their ways. But if part of his price is an employer doesn't want him anymore then that is part of the price. It may be a loss to that employer, or it may be an example of how much you can lose by making a transgression.

Coach Balasco, you seem like a very nice person so don't take this personal--okay? I responded to your response to "Andrew"--check it out! That's why I specifically posted "your comment" prior to responding. However, your response is what we call in court "non-responsive"--you didn't answer the question! This is where the opposing attorney "objects" then requests the court to "strike the response from the record." We can't do that here, so I must respond--okay? This is a learning experience for others. You have yet to respond to the "subsequent issues" which have led to further discussion. Unfortunately, you and Henry are still stuck on the "original question" but "Andrew" raised the bar and you and Henry have yet to comprehend that the conversation moved away from "Vick" long ago. That is, the inequities of "people similarly situated as Vick"--specifically the "negative and prolong exposure that they face and that correlation to race, gender, money and power.

Again, this is a learning experience and unfortunately, you must remember there are multiple opinions and multiple issues being discussed here and unfortunately "Vick" isn't the topic of discussion regarding the "subsequent issues" bought to the table specifically by Andrew. I follow very well, it's an art that most laymen don't exhibit and I do understand. The point: everything you have stated subsequently is just off point and "non-responsive and if in court the jury would never get to consider it at trial--at least in theory. BUT THAT'S ANOTHER ISSUE: Jury Nullification.

Nonetheless, since you are stuck on Vick--the original question even if made by a layman has legal implication; hence, the direction the question took to get to this point. It is what it is not what "you or " believe"--nothing but the facts matter here--and again, we're no longer talking about Vick.

Again students, this is why you don't want to end up in court as a defendant. Attorneys are very adept when it comes to "listening"--and disecting "hidden issues" that the average laymen can't. It's like chess, you gotta see the move before the move develops.

Unfortunately, personal feelings, emotions and speculation have no force in law related issues and this case is one of them.

Peace and goodnight....it basketball time...my favorite sport

Gary your response did not post my comment but a single sentence taken out of an entire comment. Had I simply wanted to say only what you reposted I would not have continued on for a long paragraph.

It seems you are taking the casual discussion of a board topic and picking apart every little comment like you are in court and trying to gain an advantage, as you explain, like most lawyers do. But this is a discussion board and feelings and beliefs do matter, as in most discussions, especially passionate ones, and I do believe you and Kevin are passionate about this, and without feelings and beliefs there would be no discussion to begin with.

Plus I do believe I addressed the topic of inequities in the system in explaining how there will always be descrepencies towards those of different means and cultures. And even within those groups there will be those who are treated differently. Especially where the judge is of a different means or culture, as they cannot help but be influenced by their backgrounds. (Just look at all the discussion surrounding Judge Sotomayer and her comments, also taken out of context). Then it takes a passionate lawyer such as you seem to be striving to be, to argue that judge away from his influences. Where does that leave those that cannot afford such a lawyer but have to contend either without or with a public defender who is overworked or forced by law to do this duty. There are inequalities from the top of the system to the bottom. When they are applied to those at the top who have the most to lose it is difficult to feel sympathy for them since they have the most to lose only because they have the most.

And I believe I have proffered valid argument of those inequalities and lack of forgiveness, being spread around equally, by offering Jeremy Mayfield's situation. While Vick has his 2nd chance from the NFL Mayfield will not get a 2nd chance. He was just as visible, had just as much negative press, paid his price, and perhaps even had a lessor transgression, but he will not be taken back. And please note that all the other issues brought to the table were in defense of Vicks total forgiveness and allowing him a 2nd chance. An admirable attempt at true religious values. So that begs the question "Will you allow this same amount of forgetting about the past and allowing a 2nd chance to the convicted pe........ (can't use the proper word here on these boards, so lets just say someone who's offense involves children and the unspeakable) who has just moved next door to your child?" If you can answer yes to this question then God bless and pray for your children, but if your answer is that that is not the same thing then you immediately answer why there will always be inequalities in our system, and why some transgressions are unforgivable by many of the public, no matter who commits them.

And no offense taken. Any debate put forward in good faith and consideration is always a pleasure to be a part of. Dangling preposition not withstanding.

IS IT THAT HARD TO STAY WITH THE QUESTION?? DO I NEED TO REPEAT!! ALL THE DOGS THAT HELP THE BLIND AND ELDERLY. THEY DON'T GET MILLIONS!! A BOWL OF STALE DRY DOOG FOOD THAT IS THEIR PAY!!

Henry, lighten up go with our flow and please stop smiling so much. And dogs that help the blind and elderly get much better food than that.

Still waiting to hear one word about this baseball steroid issue going relatively IGNORED. Vick was ridiculed for animal cruelty, then why are these baseball, (mainly) getting a free pass to continue what is to the unknowing called self-mutilation by injecting, drinking, or however they are taking PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUGS. I've had my fill of this back and forth about nothing because guys like Henry who can't admit that this has everything in the world to do with ENVY. I don't have millions and I wake up everyday happy with my wife and kids and I can enjoy my life and surroundings just fine ,knowing that GOD put me where I am for a reason. The millionaires of the world were given their life by God and what kind of person would I be to have an attitude with someone just because they have more MONEY THAN I DO? We in general need to look in the mirror and be happy with OURSELVES first and accept the fact that some have more than others, and like the basis of the question at hand, SOME WILL GET MORE CHANCES THAN OTHERS TO DO MORE, AND ALSO MAKE MORE MISTAKES THAN OTHERS AS WELL. Look it the mirror and thank God for what you have and maybe WE can stop being mad because others are more fortunate, or are they? They(the atheletes, actors, politicians, etc.,) have more to deal with than most too, so be thankful for your existence and accept it, or jealousy, and envy will consume you. Have a Good Day Gents....